Curse

Kalki · Dec 29, 2006, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantheman5415

Maybe it's because Anet agrees with the point of view Ensign is presenting?

Dan, that might be true, but we'll never know until Anet publically addresses the situation. If Anet agrees with Ensign and others that the system is fine, then I hope Gaile makes a post about it soon, so I can start finding another PvP game to play. Gaile has expressed disapproval of leechers and leavers, but she said the blame is with the community not Anet, which makes me think nothing is being done to fix this problem.

I've always had a lot of faith in Anet, and loved 99% of the changes put in game, so I'm not gonna be quick to throw in the towel. It's getting very tiring though. It's been 8 months now (and 100$ later in costs for expansions) since these problems have been ruining casual PvP for me. Some confirmation from Anet on this issue would be nice.

Ensign · Dec 30, 2006, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalki

I've played competitive sports my whole life

Have you ever played on a team that wasn't interested in playing competitive sports when you were?

Have you played alongside players day after day who weren't interested in winning or getting better, or even putting forth a minimal amount of effort? Who not only don't try, but get mad if you call them on it?

How can you commit yourself to winning a team game without teammates willing to do the same?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalki

After reading through this thread what would ever make you think that any of us would want to play 3 vs. 4 in 90% of the matches?

In general, no, I don't think anyone really *wants* to play 3v4. Speaking for myself, I similarly don't really *want* to play with teammates that do put emphasis on winning a match. I would think, naively, that such an opinion is also universal, but experience tells me that it is far from the truth.

Hence, the question being debated to death: why am I obligated to help a team win if they are not interested in helping themselves win? Why do I need to stick through to the obvious conclusions when I can instead look for a team on the same page, for teammates who *are* interested in winning games?

To turn it around: why do people not only join a competitive match, like RA, without the intention of trying to win, but have the gall to get mad when we decide not to play with them? You expect me to stay through the match? I argue that you have a much higher obligation to actually *show up* to the match and do your best to win. If people can't be bothered to help themselves, I can't be bothered to stick around watch them fail, let alone help them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myria

Predictions are guesses, not certainties.

It must be very difficult to live life when you can't base decisions upon what it likely to happen, only on what is certain to happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myria

If you believe your guesses about your random teammate's potential performace

What is so difficult to believe about people being able to predict, in some cases, with an exceptional degree of accuracy, the outcome of a Snowball Arena match within the first 30 seconds? I'm not claiming to be unique in this way at all, there are likely hundreds if not thousands of players who can make the same estimations I can, because it is not terribly difficult.

If the core of your argument is that it is wrong for me to leave on a team because I cannot accurately predict the outcome of a match, in many cases, in only 30 seconds of gameplay, then I kindly suggest that your argument is factually wrong. Because such prediction is sufficiently simple that I am honestly surprised that it's subject to debate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LagunaCid

You have a superego problem and dont give a shit about what other people think of you, or how your actions affect other people.

That's three separate assertions.

First, superego problem. In strictly Freudian terms, I will agree with you that my superego is 'abnormal'. However I will argue that an abnormal superego is not a problem, until it causes social disruption in excess of one's contributions to society. I am nowhere near that threshold. Hence, you are wrong.

Second, that I don't give a shit what other people think of me. Outside of a select group of people that I care about, I agree. I really do not care what the population at large thinks of me. However I believe this is healthy, and that having one's sense of self-worth being tied to what a faceless society thinks reeks of insecurity and is frankly pathetic.

Third, that I do not care how my actions affect other people. That is patently untrue. Of course I care about how I affect the people around me. However, there is a balance, as I care about myself as well. One has to constantly balance one's needs against the needs of those around them. You cannot thoroughly neglect yourself in favor of those around you, after all. In the case of quitting out of a lost match, it is my estimation that, given the goals (winning the match), that I am costing my team very little (playing down a man in a lost match, hence only costing them a tool to achieve a personal victory that I likely do not share), while gaining myself something valuable - more time spent in competitive matches, learning and getting better.

As for the slam you ended your post with, I think it'd be clear, based on the above, that you'd be better off directing your appraisal to the care police.

Peace,
-CxE

Vital · Dec 30, 2006, 01:12 AM // 01:12

I was reading Montaigne, but I stopped, chucked it into the trash, and just made a pizza.

c0c0c0 · Dec 30, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

That isn't really neccessary. After all, the complaint raised in this thread is that 'people who thought like that' do a pretty damn good job avoiding 'people who think like you' in the first place.

Well, yes, but with lousy timing. They are rage quitting after the opportunity to replace them with someone helpful has passed.

Usually, the best way to tell your team has some "winners" on it is if they start making comments like "Drop X. His profession sucks" and other such rudeness. Luckily, they tend to be very vocal that way and drop enough clues, if you know what to look for. It's the quiet ones you have to worry about ...

Deleet · Dec 30, 2006, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by c0c0c0

Well, yes, but with lousy timing. They are rage quitting after the opportunity to replace them with someone helpful has passed.

Usually, the best way to tell your team has some "winners" on it is if they start making comments like "Drop X. His profession sucks" and other such rudeness. Luckily, they tend to be very vocal that way and drop enough clues, if you know what to look for. It's the quiet ones you have to worry about ...

Haha, i mostly tell people what they are doing wrong before i leave the game.

Like, <Le French Guy> is using Mending!

(no offense against frence people, just an example.)

Kalki · Dec 30, 2006, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Let's not kid ourselves Ensign. You're telling me that a majority of players that "suck" don't even try? You claim to see these people playing day after day and they still "suck", because they don't try? You must be doing some serious stalking of newbies through your friends list, because 99% of people I come across in the arenas, I never see their names again.

Honestly, in all my time playing online video games I'd say that at least 99% of people playing are trying to win no matter how bad they "suck". Why else would they pay $50, install the game, and click Enter Mission? Just because someone can't dedicate hours a day to the game doesn't mean they aren't trying. The only time I'll conclude a person isn't trying is when they are actively trying to help the opposing team win. For example, I played a snowball match a few days ago, and a player on my team ran presents for the whole round to the opposing avatar. I've also played matches in FPS shooter games with Friendly Fire on, where some bonehead at the start will shoot or nade his own teammates.

Let's say someone is playing Guild Wars for the first time. How "good" do you really expect them to be just sitting down and reading PvP theory articles on these forums or the iQ website? Do you expect a player to familiarize themselves with all 900 skills in the game, and pick out a cookie-cutter build before they step foot in an arena? Or would it be better for them to just start playing the game, and familiarize themselves with the basics like movement? I would for argue for the latter as a better to learn a game.

I don't care what any elitist r12 player, who has been playing Guild Wars since release says about the difficulty of PvP in this game, but it is damn hard to get into PvP in this game. Compare the number of skills and combinations in Guild Wars to other RPG's like WoW, and it makes those other game look like they were made for pre-schoolers. I have A LOT of sympathy and respect for someone just starting this game, who has the balls to click Enter Mission in a PvP arena, knowing their probably going to get owned by players who have been playing this game since the beginning.

I'm done arguing with you Ensign. I've actually been finished arguing with players like you for years now. You'll never change my mind what it means to be a good sportsman, and I'll never change yours.

I didn't create this thread to argue with players like you. I didn't create this thread to offer suggestions to Anet. Many suggestions have already been made about this issue. I created this thread because Anet made a great game, and it deserves criticism (call them rants if you will), when something is terribly broken in the game. I created this thread to let Anet know the problem still persists, and it hasn't nor will it ever resolve itself.

3 vs. 4 or any odd-numbered match in an FPS game I can live with. Heck, I've even won matches in FPS games when it's just me, my machine gun, a few 'nades vs. 10 other people. But 3 vs. 4 in a team-based game like Guild Wars, where I can't rely on superior reflexes or individual prowess to win, breaks the game completely.

Deleet · Dec 30, 2006, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Let's not kid ourselves Ensign. You're telling me that a majority of players that "suck" don't even try? You claim to see these people playing day after day and they still "suck", because they don't try? You must be doing some serious stalking of newbies through your friends list, because 99% of people I come across in the arenas, I never see their names again.

People who continue to do unefficient builds, even when told multiple times that they should rethink their build.

Quote:

Honestly, in all my time playing online video games I'd say that at least 99% of people playing are trying to win no matter how bad they "suck". Why else would they pay $50, install the game, and click Enter Mission? Just because someone can't dedicate hours a day to the game doesn't mean they aren't trying. The only time I'll conclude a person isn't trying is when they are actively trying to help the opposing team win.

There is a difference between learning from mistakes and not learning.
Some people just don't learn or are unwillingly to learn.

Quote:

Let's say someone is playing Guild Wars for the first time. How "good" do you really expect them to be just sitting down and reading PvP theory articles on these forums or the iQ website? Do you expect a player to familiarize themselves with all 900 skills in the game, and pick out a cookie-cutter build before they step foot in an arena? Or would it be better for them to just start playing the game, and familiarize themselves with the basics like movement? I would for argue for the latter as a better to learn a game.

This is why PvE is here. Learning the game, some people just never get past that. PvP isn't perfect, and it's very hard to get into if you just enter random arena a million times, but if you actually find some builds on wiki, read how they work and tips for playing them better. Then you're quickly on yout way of becomming a good player, you just need to realize that the information is out there also, you don't have to experience everything first handly.

Quote:

I didn't create this thread to argue with players like you. I didn't create this thread to offer suggestions to Anet. Many suggestions have already been made about this issue. I created this thread because Anet made a great game, and it deserves criticism (call them rants if you will), when something is terribly broken in the game. I created this thread to let Anet know the problem still persists, and it hasn't nor will it ever resolve itself.

IMO, the problem is that somem people are basically stupid and there is no solution to that.

Quote:

3 vs. 4 or any odd-numbered match in an FPS game I can live with. Heck, I've even won matches in FPS games when it's just me, my machine gun, a few 'nades vs. 10 other people. But 3 vs. 4 in a team-based game like Guild Wars, where I can't rely on superior reflexes or individual prowess to win, breaks the game completely.

You know, they can just quit also. Noone forces you to play a hopeless match. And of course it's possible to win some times in a 3v4 situation, but mostly not. Especially if you're missing a healing or just have brainless people without resurrect signets etc. etc.

winkgood · Dec 30, 2006, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Interesting how one side is arguing that they will leave if they have determined winning to be out of the picture and another side who insist on sticking it out out of sportsmanship and honor. I've got a solution that should appease both sides. Those that want to leave can leave and those that want to stay can stay. Look, if someone leaves because they are 100% certain that their team cannot win, what's wrong with that? Obviously they have different goals than you do in playing. Since some of you will stick with a team no matter how bad the team is, what's the difference if you are in a 4v4 losing team and a 4v3 losing team?

The only reason I play the snowball arena is because of that dang title. It would have been better off had they not added the title at all. But since its there, I have to get it of course. I'm certainly not doing this for the faction as I've already maxed my faction and have everything unlocked. Yes, I have left teams before the match ended but I am a bit more forgiving than some of the other leavers out there. I'll stay in a match if only three have loaded or if one has dropped out. If only two load or if two have quit then I will quit as well. The reason I stay with only three players is because there is still a possibility of winning. I had a team of three that won two rounds straight (both times, the 4th guy failed to load) then went on to win 28 rounds when we got a 4th teammate. It wasn't hard to see that my two teammates were capable players so I stuck it out for those two rounds.

My other condition for leaving is when I see that we are hopelessly outmatched. Say we are down 3 to 0 and my team has shown that they have no clue what they are doing. Why waste more of my time on a sinking ship when I can get back in with players that actually want to win? Besides, the quicker I get back in, the less likely I'll be with those same players who think that the snowball arena is deathmatch. Call me an elitist or whatever you want for leaving when my teammates are incompetent. Last time I checked the point of the snowball arena and any other type of PvP is to win and if my teammates can't at least do the courtesy of reading the instructions and looking for other players' advice on wiki then they aren't worth my time. The novelty of the snowball arena wore off last year. My only reason for playing more than a few rounds this year is to add another title to my collection.

Calen The Civl · Dec 30, 2006, 06:56 AM // 06:56

While I most likely do not belong in a pvp conversation, I must put forth my few cents worth of thoughts.

First, I dislike PvP in almost all ways because of the must win attitudes out there. I did, however, decide to play the snowball arena to see if pvp can spark any interest again and for another title. While I am working toward that title, I refuse to fall into a leaver category and other dishonorable actions. I mainly play to have fun, but all of the too serious pvp people leaving and bad mouthing is sorely reducing that fun.

Although there are a lot of extremely good pvp players, from my view most pvp people just whine about "overpowered" skills instead of seeking counter builds, bad mouth those who are trying to learn how to pvp well, and just overall being "leet" jerks instead of being truly elite by teaching those who are learning.

Sadly this experience has extended into the just-for-fun snowball arenas. I think I shall just stop trying to get into pvp and just stick to what I enjoy most: helping others have fun at a game and playing that game better.

Granted, I have played pvp with a few helpful and fun players who gave me pointers, but sadly they are few and rare.

Apologies for the rant-it has been a bother for me for a long while now. Overall I do agree leavers should be punished at random arenas, but festival team arenas should also be available for the hardcore pvp players.

atkafighter · Dec 30, 2006, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkgood

Last time I checked the point of the snowball arena and any other type of PvP is to win and if my teammates can't at least do the courtesy of reading the instructions and looking for other players' advice on wiki then they aren't worth my time. The novelty of the snowball arena wore off last year. My only reason for playing more than a few rounds this year is to add another title to my collection.

You would be surprised how many rounds I've done today where my team was utterly clueless about what to do, why the skills were diffrent, where to go. It was pretty annoying but I helped them as much as I could. Alot of people that were on today didn't know where to take presents, or how to win the match. As a rule I only leave if someone is afk, or leaves before me so yeah I've had to stick it out for a lot of sinking ship battles.

I haven't had a victory in a few hours -_-

Gli · Dec 30, 2006, 08:21 AM // 08:21

If I'm in a game with someone who I've come to know as a frequent leaver and he doesn't leave that particular game, I usually leave a minute into the game, especially if we're doing well. Yes, I'm a very spiteful person, and getting back to one of these assholes gives me great joy. Screw the other two players, I'll gladly sacrifice their chances at winning AND their sense of fun to get back at someone who's been p-ing me off.

And yes, I do realize I practice a very horrible double standard.

Makkert · Dec 30, 2006, 09:26 AM // 09:26

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr258
read, reread, digest, grasp.

I must have linked to 'Spike, Johnny & Timmy' dozens of time. But its such a great reading then again, and applies here again. People talk about 'honorable and dishonorable actions'. But remember its YOUR set of paramaters that define what is honorable or not. Not everyone thinks like you. There are different psychological gamerprofiles, which is explained in the article I linked to.
So stop trying to enforce your 'honorcode' on others. It doesn't work. It won't happen. Simply because there are different types of gamers. Not everyone is like you. Try to grasp things from the other gamerprofiles perspective for a change. It may be refreshing.

zhai · Dec 30, 2006, 11:15 AM // 11:15

I'm getting pissed off - I reported a person for leeching few days ago. Probably he got banned for this time. Today I met him again, and he still leeches. I reported few other guys but i lost all the snowball fun. I made 2k pts and I'm so pissed off, that I prefer to play Counter Strike Source, than Guild Wars. ARENA NET - WAKE UP! Leechers are killing gameplay! Fort Aspenwood, Jade Quarry - what's goin to be next? You are making great game, but you MUST DO SOMETHING to keep it in good condition. Do some restart battle system(leechers will be kicked out, and new layer will be added) or votekicking system. i'm sure u can do that - anti-farm filter works, why not to apply it to PvP? If player enters PvP battle and doesn't use any skills/move for some period of time(depending on the PvP mode he is playing, or even a map), he get kicked, and whole battle restarts.

Sorry for my english, I know it's a mess...

targetdrone · Dec 30, 2006, 11:36 AM // 11:36

All this would be _less_ of a problem if Anet implemented an Upgraded Ignore List or a separate "Exclude List" as per the following link:

http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...3073065&page=3

You don't want to be in someone's team for whatever reason, add them to your private "Lamer" List, and be prevented from being _automatically_ put in the same team as them, and be warned whenever you are manually put in the same team, or they get added to your team (then you decide if you want to leave or not). The List should of course be based on the account and not the character- I think the Ignore list works that way right?

This sort of thing is fairly easy to implement. It's not complex business rules "logic"...

You don't like playing with noobs who don't know what they are doing- add the noobs to your list and quit.

You don't like playing with quitters, add the quitter to your list.

Then you two won't ever have to play with each other again.

Lastly, to the people who leave just because a warrior uses mending. I have played a warrior in Kurzick Aspenwood, using mending, and I have often won half the battle by leading 8 luxon warriors to a safe place on the map, then tanking them (and various luxon players that try to kill me) till both turtles die, and only then dying and leaving the 8 luxon warriors to stand there aimlessly (or till an idiot teammate aggros them). If the luxon warriors don't die = no new siege turtles. No new siege turtles = better chances for Kurzicks.

Sure the luxons are noobs for not being able to kill a whammo who uses mending- but I've tanked through a fair bit - edenial, enchantment removal, spike nuking, etc... After all 8 luxon warriors give you lots of energy and I had a lot more than 55hp and 60AL

. No PvP build is unbeatable of course, nor should be. But mending has a place in PvP.

Makkert · Dec 30, 2006, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Oh please....the arguments have been made countless times to explain why Mending doesn't belong in pvp.
And everytime it is being 'counterargumented' with personal experiences instead of giving an explanation how 3 or 4 pips of hp can stop the bashing of 8 warriors ALONE, which makes absoluty no sense and is frankly, a bs argument.
Maybe you made a supertanking build. well, cgz, for finding 8 players stupid enough to endless swing their weapons of you, instead of finding a target they can kill easily and leave you basically useless for the team.

But this is derailing from the original topic, so let's leave it at that.

Ensign · Dec 30, 2006, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalki

Let's not kid ourselves Ensign. You're telling me that a majority of players that "suck" don't even try?

Absolutely. They don't prioritize winning over whatever other goals they've come to desire, and as a result don't try to win or get better.

I think that'd be obvious, because players who try stop sucking very, very quickly, leaving only a blip.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalki

You claim to see these people playing day after day and they still "suck", because they don't try?

As if I pay attention to the name of Random J Scrub and follow him around. He's nameless, but appears on newly formed teams with frequency. Individual randoms are unlikely to stick around, they get smoked over and over again and because they do not have the mindset to understand why, they simply go back to PvE instead of continuing to fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalki

Why else would they pay $50, install the game, and click Enter Mission?

Because they want to throw snowballs at people? Individuals have their own goals, which oftentimes supercede winning the match. I do not feel beholden to those people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalki

How "good" do you really expect them to be just sitting down and reading PvP theory articles

Are they trying to learn how to play PvP? Probably weak for the first couple matches, but that shouldn't last long. Learning comes very quickly in the fire if you pay attention to it. Certainly it'll take a while to pick up nuance, but it doesn't take very long at all to figure out how to deal damage to people and how to stay alive. Hell, when losing you're presented with examples of people accomplishing that goal, win or lose.

If you go into snowball arena, you're really playing a game of Capture the Flag. Maybe that should be spelled out more explicitly by the game, because I'm sure a vast, vast majority of players have played or at least heard of Capture the Flag in some capacity. If you have a clue, you understand as a complete newbie that you win at Capture the Flag by doing stuff with the flag. So when players, well, don't pay attention to the Flag at all or anything having to do with it, no matter if you mention it, what is one to conclude?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalki

but it is damn hard to get into PvP in this game.

Agreed. In fact I believe it's the biggest failing of PvP in Guild Wars. The fact that the few newbie-friendly PvP types (anything with random teams) have been allowed to degenerate into cesspools (AFK leeching, poorly explained gameplay, imbalances and exploits, dominant team concentration) is pathetic and doesn't speak very highly of the Guild Wars support team. Unsurprisingly, Snowball Arena is quite possibly the worst of the random formats for new players, despite the one really strong mechanic it has - level and skill bar (rough) equalization, removing those barriers from play.

Unfortunately it suffers from other serious problems - the emergence of dominant 'random' teams as a consequence of winning teams sticking together; a serious AFK problem; a non-trivial set of rules that is not even attempted to be explained. As a result Snowball Arena has been in constant decline since it first was introduced, with the players most interested in winning join-spiking and cycling teams as fast as possible until they get one that'll go on a 50-game tear, and joe newbie trying to get into PvP running into a steady stream of AFK players, quasi-premade teams that have been playing together for hours, and, yes, players like me raging out over and over again looking for that team that can go on that streak. It's all a consequence of horrendous game design, one that, we would hope, people would learn from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalki

other RPG's like WoW, and it makes those other game look like they were made for pre-schoolers.

That's an accurate description of WoW actually, it has been designed so that you can succeed no matter how bad you are or what you try to do with it. That makes it incredibly addictive to a general population that has to struggle through things so often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

If I'm in a game with someone who I've come to know as a frequent leaver and he doesn't leave that particular game, I usually leave a minute into the game, especially if we're doing well.

That's awesome. Usually when I get a solid team, I can win 3v4 easily, because players are so bad. If the scrub on my team wants to take off just to spite me, that's fine, I'll roll the dice on getting another player worth his salt in the next round. It could easily backfire with an AFK, but I hadn't had that experience yet.

Peace,
-CxE

getalifebud · Dec 31, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Players are so bad now, i find myself leaving much more spontaneously, why do people still bring rangers and paragons in.

Dr Strangelove · Dec 31, 2006, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by getalifebud

Players are so bad now, i find myself leaving much more spontaneously, why do people still bring rangers and paragons in.

Uh... for the same reason you bring other classes in? Did I miss something?

Ensign · Dec 31, 2006, 05:33 AM // 05:33

A lot of people insist on playing snowball arena with their PvE characters. If they're a Ranger or Paragon, that's what they're playing as, no matter how weak that profession might be.

Peace,
-CxE

Dr Strangelove · Dec 31, 2006, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

A lot of people insist on playing snowball arena with their PvE characters. If they're a Ranger or Paragon, that's what they're playing as, no matter how weak that profession might be.

Peace,
-CxE

Oh, duh, I was thinking he was referring to RA.